tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post6668172814883106563..comments2023-12-05T11:49:58.292+01:00Comments on Specific English: Natives and non-natives - justified discrimination?Jeremy Dayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09201355268663999870noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-77251448191535152722015-06-15T14:01:37.233+02:002015-06-15T14:01:37.233+02:00I work for a British Council that hires both nativ...I work for a British Council that hires both native and non-native speakers…which is really good. However, the pay is different. The local teachers are paid less than the expats, it's quite a big difference. Is this even allowed? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-69495723247935723142010-04-02T10:48:01.825+02:002010-04-02T10:48:01.825+02:00Dear Jeremy and all
Hey, there is more on the to...Dear Jeremy and all <br /><br />Hey, there is more on the topic/issue. 'Stereotype threat' below is well worth reading. I stumbled upon it while reading about human rights issue and I thought the same sort of thinking sets in in employers' minds in our NNST/NST debate. This text below deals with racial issue and I hope it just serves to transfer it to our debate. <br />http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com<br /><br /><br />Natasha<br />Belgrade, SerbianatashaBBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06960405661024707703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-63728285214141502212010-04-01T14:12:43.815+02:002010-04-01T14:12:43.815+02:00Dear Marta, Jeremy, all
I ve recently read an art...Dear Marta, Jeremy, all<br /><br />I ve recently read an article about the so - called IMPOSTOR'S SYNDROME some nonnative speaking teachers suffer from, which added to my woes :) but then again it also encouraged me <br /><br />Here is the link. Hope you like it! <br /><br />www2.warwick.ac.uk/.../impostor_syndrome_paper_by_bernat_sent_to_elted_24aug08_-_updated.doc<br /><br />http://www.elted.net/issues/volume-11/1%20Bernat.pdf<br /><br />Natasha<br />Belgrade,SerbianatashaBBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06960405661024707703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-42147523028904727442010-04-01T14:07:38.150+02:002010-04-01T14:07:38.150+02:00Marta
right you are! I enjoyed reading your post....Marta<br /><br />right you are! I enjoyed reading your post. You are right about our having to prove ourselves and bend almost double in doing so. <br />Thanks God,there is EIL and/or ELF out and about and situation is on the up. <br /><br />Natasha <br />Belgrade, SerbianatashaBBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06960405661024707703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-89583055655142274312010-03-27T20:14:56.805+01:002010-03-27T20:14:56.805+01:00Wow, Marta. It's great to have you here, and s...Wow, Marta. It's great to have you here, and sorry for using you as an anecdote. That 'minor incident' made a lasting impression on me - you taught me to question my prejudices and my acceptance of others' prejudices. <br /><br />And hearing your comments here, you make me realise how important it is to stand up against the status quo. <br /><br />If you'll excuse me using you as an anecdote one last time, I hope other non-native English teachers find your comment and take inspiration from your success!<br /><br />JeremyJeremy Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09201355268663999870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-21582457481501182642010-03-26T22:27:31.428+01:002010-03-26T22:27:31.428+01:00Gosh, Jeremy, so you still remember that minor inc...Gosh, Jeremy, so you still remember that minor incident? It’s really gracious of you to say all these flattering things about me. (I’m not sure I’d describe myself as having a good grasp of methodological theory!)<br />In other words, I am the non-native teacher Jeremy wanted to employ at IH all those years ago. I’ve since had a diverse, exciting and enjoyable career, and I’d like to say this: I’ve had to fight discrimination again and again, and again. Being a non-native ELT professional is a bit like being a woman sixty years ago: whatever you do, you must do twice as well as a ‘native’ to be thought half as good. And many of your native-speaker colleagues, although they won’t usually say it to your face, believe the discrimination is reasonable and justified. So it’s reassuring to meet someone like Jeremy from time to time!<br />Cheers<br />MartaUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814070734560793481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-52494304595947158952010-02-05T21:50:21.500+01:002010-02-05T21:50:21.500+01:00Sorry all for taking so long to reply. I'll tr...Sorry all for taking so long to reply. I'll try to deal with all these great comments now.<br /><br />Anne: Thanks for the bits and bytes (but not sure who Jason is!) I agree that bilingualism is really important and useful - it's so crazy that it's still seen in some circles as inferior to monlingualism. I have no idea about the British Council in Munich, I'm afraid - in fact, there doesn't seem to be one, unless my internet search skills are failing me. If they do hire only British nationals, perhaps they're spies or something, so they have to be Brits. Or perhaps it's just a coincidence that all their teachers are Brits and they haven't made enough of an effort to dispel the rumour that they discriminate in their recruitment. No idea, but it'd be interesting to find out more.<br /><br />Rory: What can I say - all really important and valid points. I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for poor old native speakers now - after all of us ganging up on them and saying that non-natives are better. But I guess the point to keep coming back to is that we shouldn't judge people by the group they belong to / have been assigned to. Native speakers can be great teachers. Non-natives can be great. And both can also be rubbish, and everything in between.<br /><br />Darren: Absolutely. I'm not sure if many farm boys read this blog, but if they do, I'm sure your apology is welcome. <br /><br />Natasha: Glad you got involved here, and indeed glad you started off the debate by spotting the discrimination in the job add. It's also nice to see you sticking up for the natives (or rather reminding us natives why we still have a role in the teaching of our language!) <br /><br />Thanks for reminding us about those great Lenny Henry (not Larry!) videos. A good reminder to keep a sense of perspective in this debate.<br /><br />cheers<br /><br />JeremyJeremy Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09201355268663999870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-13784493435466445402010-01-03T22:01:40.997+01:002010-01-03T22:01:40.997+01:00Dear Jeremy
During that very debate I did resort ...Dear Jeremy<br /><br />During that very debate I did resort to humor again by saying that by ONLY NATIVE SPEAKERS equation it would mean that Herbert Puchta, Claudia Ferradas, Kari Smith or the like will never stand a chance of getting any decent ELT job but the pro-native- speaking -teachers debaters seem to have shunned the replies to that one coming 'off my cuff' :) <br /><br />Natasha <br />Belgrade, SerbianatashaBBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06960405661024707703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-50028382730888550502010-01-03T21:36:20.735+01:002010-01-03T21:36:20.735+01:00Dear Jeremy
With my wicked sense of humor to top ...Dear Jeremy<br /><br />With my wicked sense of humor to top it all, I have to add that sometimes non native speaking teachers also are prone to loads of language atrocities.<br /> <br />The dichotomy aforesaid must not 'lull' the nonnative speaking teachers into thinking that in the times to come, they /me included/ will rest on the laurels. <br /><br />I may try and scour U -tube for a brilliant Larry Henry's britcom which would be perfect for this debate. I've seen it on BBC PRIME and I laughed my heart out in two short sketches in which Larry Henry has the role of a dentist -to -be applying for a job in UK reputed dentist's office and in another one a hair-stylist to be applying for a job with the film director directing 'Romeo and Julliette' or the like. In both cases Larry Henry claims racial discrimination for not getting a job in his hilarious way. :) <br /><br />I hope you can watch these too and by the same token establish a trivial comparison with NNST vs NST debate and what IMHO non-native speaking teachers must never do. <br /><br />Natasha<br />Belgrade, SerbiaNatashaBBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02515267453902947958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-52722112496662991022010-01-03T21:25:11.326+01:002010-01-03T21:25:11.326+01:00Hello Jeremy
I may have been the NNST who instig...Hello Jeremy <br /><br />I may have been the NNST who instigated the debate :) on BESIG after that 'infamous' job ad. I think I did reply 'why on Eearth it has to be a native speaking teacher':( or it may have been a teacher from India and I followed on from there. :) <br /><br />There is a shortish something on this dichotomy in the latest issue of IATEFL Voices. I may try and find it and copy it here. <br /><br />Natasha <br />Belgrade, SerbiaNatashaBBChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02515267453902947958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-62626427137624528112009-12-24T02:49:48.202+01:002009-12-24T02:49:48.202+01:00You are quite right Jeremy... I, too, was rubbish ...You are quite right Jeremy... I, too, was rubbish when I started - and I am neither a farm boy, nor from Nebraska. I didn't even have the benefit of a CELTA until I picked one up after a year of 'teaching'. Throwing more stereotypes into the mix doesn't help anyone. Apologies.<br /><br />I think this debate will be moot in years to come, as English speakers lose their (already extremely shaky) status as owners and guardians of the language. But anything we can do to hasten equality of opportunity I'm all for, from Gdansk to Omaha!Darren Elliotthttp://www.livesofteachers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-87794742711898415982009-12-22T23:17:05.982+01:002009-12-22T23:17:05.982+01:00Hi Jeremy,
I think that the idea that being a nat...Hi Jeremy,<br /><br />I think that the idea that being a native speaker is a qualification to teach is a rather misguided one. There is a lot of discrimination in Germany based on the idea that only native speaking teachers are capable of teaching English to Germans, and that this is what is marketed to the customer. I think that this is a misnomer for a number of reasons, and under certain circumstances, Germans might be better able to teach English than a native speaker. <br />(1) A German person teaching English would have learned it as their second language (L2). If they have had this experience of learning a second language, which many native speaker haven’t done because of idea that English (their L1) is the only necessary language, then they are more competent to guide a beginner student though the same learning stages. <br />(2) Native English speakers do not always understand the most common problems Germans students face when learning English. A German person teaching English can explain things certain things better to the beginner student, and in the process prevent common translation errors from becoming fossilized. <br />(3) Most students need International English for communication to other non-native speakers, so it is very helpful to hear other accents, rather than exclusive exposure to native speakers all the time. Native English teachers tend to overcomplicate forms of communication, which are often only applicable when communications with other native English speakers is required. <br />(4) Many students need teacher’s who understand their education system and their special needs. A German teaching English would probably understand the customer’s needs better than a native speaker who has little or no experience of the German education system. <br />The only advantage of a native speaker is that advanced level students can certainly benefit from more instruction in the idiomatic aspects of the language. I would suggest that non-native teachers are very strong in the beginner to intermediate levels, but they may not have an extensive enough grasp of the language to deal with more advanced students. Certainly if these non-native teachers have done a CELTA they have shown their language competencies and they should be given a chance to work in the profession.Roryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05192995726943039336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-29794626367926416832009-12-22T19:19:41.340+01:002009-12-22T19:19:41.340+01:00Hi Jason,
Just odd bits and bytes:
1. I once had a...Hi Jason,<br />Just odd bits and bytes:<br />1. I once had a Polish EFL colleague here in Munich whose English was so amazing I was sure she'd grown up bilingual. Nope. Fabulous role model to the Poles here. <br />2. Academic level bilinguqlism seems far more attractive in a trainer, at least to my clients in ESP, than "just" having a native speaker with the necessary background. They like to have their trainer be their translator.<br />3. I'm a bit unsure, and perhaps you could clarify, but I believe The British Council here in Munich only hires British nationals. Would thst simply be because they can afford to? Or would it be to preclude colo(u)r blindess? ;)Anne Hodgsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14225113474074315864noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-14506101744287820122009-12-18T11:42:22.667+01:002009-12-18T11:42:22.667+01:00Thanks a lot for these great comments.
Vicki: Go...Thanks a lot for these great comments. <br /><br />Vicki: Good point. I can't imagine anyone trying to claim business is an all-male world nowadays, so sounds like progress. Mind you, perhaps my view of the world of business has been infleunced by all those high-powered businesswomen in course books! <br /><br />Anyway, good for you for standing up for common sense with that video. <br /><br />I'm not sure we, as teachers (and writers/editors) can do much to make the world a better place, but I suppose if we stop trying we become part of the problem. <br /><br />Alex: Yes, there are issues with visas, and other forms of 'justified discrimination'. When I joined the British Council I assumed it was a British-only institution, like (the senior elements of) the British Embassy or the British Army. Part of my job description is to present a favourable image of Britain - as a BC teacher I'm a type of cultural ambassador. So you could argue that a Brits-only policy is justifiable. But then it'd also have to exclude Irish, Americans, Canadadians and South Africans (to name some of the nationalities I've worked with in the BC). <br /><br />Darren: By all means schools could justify discrimination based on language proficiency. A teacher whose English isn't good enough shouldn't really be teaching the language. Or rather, not at high levels - I could probably do a reasonable job at teaching you beginner-level Polish, even though my own level is around upper-int. <br /><br />As for whether it could be proved to be racism in court, I'm not so sure it'd be a problem to prove it. I'd love to see a test case, where a super-profient non-native took a language school (preferably one of the bad ones) to court after being refused an interview or a job. The school would have to prove that the teacher's language really was flawed in a significant way. Could be interesting. But of course that's easy for me to say, in the comfort of my cushy native-speakerland.<br /><br />I didn't mention the 'untrained farm-boys of Nebraska' in my original posting - sounds dangerously close to more stereotypes to me. But I get your point. <br /><br />When I started in 1996, I was completely clueless. So lets' replace your farm boys with me in 1996. My lessons were rubbish. And yet, I was told, and I believed, that I had more to offer than non-natives. <br /><br />Well, perhaps, thanks to the methodology I'd picked up in my month at IH Picadilly I was actually better than a small number of dodgy-methodology non-natives. But there's no way I was better than most, let alone all, non-natives. And yet the market demanded native speakers ...<br /><br />Anyway, looking forward to more great commnets.Jeremy Dayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09201355268663999870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-334339702946864002009-12-18T06:42:41.322+01:002009-12-18T06:42:41.322+01:00Alex - an excellent point.
I guess, though, that...Alex - an excellent point. <br /><br />I guess, though, that it would be hard to claim this as racism in court as it is based on language rather than ethnicity. The argument is that non-native speakers are not as skilled in the major requirement for the job as native speakers. We may disagree, but as yet it is still a common belief (even amongst learners, who eschew highly skilled teachers of their own nationality in favour of untrained, unqualified farm-boys from Nebraska).Darrenhttp://www.livesofteachers.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-31637853139699971122009-12-15T22:44:39.994+01:002009-12-15T22:44:39.994+01:00I think the starting point should be that jobs tha...I think the starting point should be that jobs that advertise for someone with a CELTA or Trinity Cert TESOL should not have further restrictions on people being native or non native speakers, especially if they are a school, like IH, that is quite happy to train non native teachers in said CELTA and charge them the same as native speakers. All this is dependant on visa restrictions, however.Alex Casehttp://www.tefl.net/alexcasenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3368834947627964795.post-60232512961643770602009-12-15T22:30:48.688+01:002009-12-15T22:30:48.688+01:00Great post Jeremy.
It reminds me of a business E...Great post Jeremy. <br /><br />It reminds me of a business English video project I worked on twenty or so years ago. A production company had been contracted by a publishing house to write the script. All the main characters were male and I objected – where were the women? The guy running the production company told me that that would compromise the video’s authenticity. To reflect the real world of business (as it was then), the decision makers should be men. <br /><br />I was very pleased when the (male) video producer from the publishing house overruled him. His argument: our goal was educational and if that meant presenting an idealized world to improve the world, so be it.<br /> <br />I think the issue here is similar. It can be argued that the customer is king and schools need to select teachers to satisfy their clients’ expectations. But those expectations will reflect the world as it exists today. If our goal is to educate our clients, selecting teachers who can lead us to a better future makes more sense.Vicki Holletthttp://www.vickihollett.comnoreply@blogger.com